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California Judge Says Baker Cannot Be Forced To Make A Cake Against their Convictions
Posted: 12 February 2018 06:32 PM   [ Ignore ]
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/08/us/wedding-cake-ruling-trnd/index.html

For this to come out of any California Judge is something..I am sure it will get appealed and SCOTUS will get involved.

The Judge’s reasoning actually sound quite valid:

“The right to freedom of speech under the First Amendment outweighs the state’s interest in ensuring a freely accessible marketplace,” Lampe wrote in his ruling. “A wedding cake is not just a cake in free speech analysis. It is an artistic expression by the person making it that is to be used traditionally as a centerpiece in the celebration of a marriage. There could not be a greater form of expressive conduct.”


I wounder how this will play out?

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Posted: 12 February 2018 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I don’t see how it could be otherwise to be honest.

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Posted: 12 February 2018 10:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Great now we will have to define “art” and see some racist “cheeseburger artist” decide that he doesn’t want to serve his cheeseburgers to black folks/gays/Arabs because it’s against his beliefs and freedom of speech.  Plug in clothes/fashion, books, jewelry, etc stores and now we’ve reverted back to segregation.

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Posted: 12 February 2018 11:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Ancient Orange - 12 February 2018 10:48 PM

Great now we will have to define “art” and see some racist “cheeseburger artist” decide that he doesn’t want to serve his cheeseburgers to black folks/gays/Arabs because it’s against his beliefs and freedom of speech.  Plug in clothes/fashion, books, jewelry, etc stores and now we’ve reverted back to segregation.


The Ruling was actually very reasonable..Here is the official text:

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/national/tastries-bakery-ruling/2750/


Here is the part that really brings it home IMO:

No artist, having placed their work for public sale, may refuse to sell for an unlawful discriminatory purpose. No baker may place their wares in public display case, open their shop, and then refuse to sell because of race, religion, gender, or gender identification.

The difference here is that the cake in question is not yet baked. The State is not petitioning the court to order defendants to sell cake. The State asks this court to compel Miller to use her talents to design and create cake she has not yet conceived with the knowledge that her work will be displayed in celebration of marital union her religion forbids. For this court to force such compliance would do
violence to the essentials of Free Speech guaranteed under the First Amendment.

 

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Posted: 12 February 2018 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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What if that “cheese burger” artist turns out to be of any other race?  Are all racists white males?  This seems to be the consensus especially among mainstream mefia.  I am concerned that my children may be indicted as inherent racists simply for being white males.  As I travel not only internationally but here in the USA, I am confident that this issue manifests itself among all groups.  And can we separate those making decisions based on their core values as opposed to ignorant racists (consisting of all groups) seeking attention? 

I may have went on a bit with this, but dont those cake bakers have certain rights and expectations that this gov’t must represent them as well?

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Posted: 13 February 2018 12:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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CU_Tigers4life - 12 February 2018 11:10 PM

No artist, having placed their work for public sale, may refuse to sell for an unlawful discriminatory purpose. No baker may place their wares in public display case, open their shop, and then refuse to sell because of race, religion, gender, or gender identification.

That’s much better.  Glad somebody could pickup the slack for CNN and their 30 second “new article”. 

SWVADON.  It shouldn’t matter that race/sex/religion/sexuality anyone is.  All should get the same service.

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Posted: 13 February 2018 08:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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While I agree with the ruling, I have always wondered why anyone would pay a baker who does not support their union to make them a once in a lifetime (theorictically speaking) cake? Is it really that difficult to find someone who would willingly make them a cake?

Frankly, if the government forced me to bake them a cake against my beliefs, I’m pretty sure no one would take more than one bite, assuming they could get over the hideousness of the way the cake looked.

That is why I contend it is not about the cake or any rights, it’s just a way to pick a fight with someone they want to hurt or run out of business.

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Posted: 13 February 2018 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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It’s an attention whore move for sure.  Everybody thinks they are rose parks or Ann Frank.  Hashtag struggle

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Posted: 13 February 2018 10:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Ancient:  I agree that everyone should have the same rights.  Nowhere in my post did I indicate otgerwise.  Just calling out the reversion to “segregation” status that you mentioned.  Who would lead that charge (to segregate, i.e. what race, religious group, etc)?  I am asking you so I have an idea of who the bad actors would be so that we can all wary of who to look out for in the future.

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Posted: 13 February 2018 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I would say everyone would be responsible to some degree.  If you look at human history it would be hard to find a single race, religion, sex, etc that didn’t have a bigoted past at some point.

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Posted: 13 February 2018 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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This decision is so much bigger than merely not baking a cake…

I think the Judge really made a profound statement when he said there is a difference in refusing to sell a pre-made cake versus creating one.


Let’s take away the cultural component for a sec can look at it from a generic point of view…


Let’s say I have a Hamburger shop.  All I make is Hamburgers.  Can a person come in and ask me to make a Pork Sandwich?...I don’t offer the product at my store. I could make one specially but I don’t want to.  I could throw a curve is and say It’s against my faith but I want to keep it generic and stick with the point that I don’t offer the product.  Do I have to make the product? Where does it stop?

Let’s go back to the Cake… If you were a Cake Maker and someone came in was a Horror Movie Fan and said thew wanted a Decapitation themed Cake and you were against making such a thing…Do You Have to Make it?.....Abortion is legal..Would you make a cake that depicts and abortion?

These are extreme (I have worse), but my point as it plays to the judges ruling is that a vendor makes “Standard” products for all, but should have the ability on “specialty items” to set their own limits to what they offer for whatever reason.

As we have all said, just go somewhere that makes the product the way you want it instead of being the next “Rosa Parks” which is really the underlying agenda of many of these people I believe.

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Posted: 13 February 2018 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Ancient,  i concur with your last post.

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Posted: 13 February 2018 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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I would tell the couple that I couldn’t bake the cake because it might offend my Muslim customers.

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Posted: 13 February 2018 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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CU_Tigers4life - 12 February 2018 11:10 PM

Here is the part that really brings it home IMO:

No artist, having placed their work for public sale, may refuse to sell for an unlawful discriminatory purpose. No baker may place their wares in public display case, open their shop, and then refuse to sell because of race, religion, gender, or gender identification.

The difference here is that the cake in question is not yet baked. The State is not petitioning the court to order defendants to sell cake. The State asks this court to compel Miller to use her talents to design and create cake she has not yet conceived with the knowledge that her work will be displayed in celebration of marital union her religion forbids. For this court to force such compliance would do
violence to the essentials of Free Speech guaranteed under the First Amendment.

 

This was a great point and crucial to the decision.

Ancient Orange - 13 February 2018 10:52 AM

I would say everyone would be responsible to some degree.  If you look at human history it would be hard to find a single race, religion, sex, etc that didn’t have a bigoted past at some point.

Certainly true and unfortunately this will always be the case. Bigotry is an unfortunate human condition that exists in all circles.

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Posted: 14 February 2018 10:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Here is a somewhat funny story that is related to this story.  I have a great mother-in-law, but she is a Gloria Steinem, Bra Burning, Hilary Clinton loving liberal that for the last 31 years that I have been her son in law we have had a robust debate in my conservative view vs her left of Bernie Sanders Liberal views…......She also happens to be a retired artist.

We got into the discussion on this Cake Baking situation and I asked her if I could commission her to make a a few paintings for me…One depicting A strong Pro-Life theme and the other A salute to Donald Trump….

She said No of course and that’s when I compared the cake maker argument to her line of work.

It was a pretty funny moment,

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“I’ve trained myself not to laugh or smile. I watched a hundred hours of the Three Stooges; every time I felt like smiling or laughing, I jabbed myself in the stomach with a cattle prod.”

—Col. Flagg From M*A*S*H

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Posted: 14 February 2018 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Well played.

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“I won’t support any sport where you sit on your ass and go backwards.”

Coach Frank Howard when asked to support a rowing team at Clemson

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